Not to be gossipy, but this....
I was talking to mom this morning and she asked me if there was another Nick Volker. When I told her no she said I had to watch the news today. I would write the whole thing, but it's something you just have to watch. And now it makes more sense that he moved to another church this past summer.
Please ladies and gents, wipe the shock off your faces.
the ksn.com page is down so try here: kwch KSN has the video so you'll have to click on the news today link above to see the video.
Please ladies and gents, wipe the shock off your faces.
the ksn.com page is down so try here: kwch KSN has the video so you'll have to click on the news today link above to see the video.
posted by Jen Nuessen at 7:59 AM
27 Comments:
well, i checked the news... and nothing??? what's going on???
link to the story?
My link inside my post was weird, so, go to here:
http://www.kwch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=KWCH%2FMGArticle%2FWCH_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1128768571279&path=!news!local
Jen just mentioned to me that he was beloved by his parish. It's unfortunate his faith only accepts celibacy from their priests. If only he had been raised Methodist or something! Then he could have become a minister who was able to have sex!
i completely agree with you, Gretchen.
there are so many contributing things that seems to make me push religion further away from myself.
i think it's great that people have religion or whatever it is that they need or want to believe in....
but a lot of it, to me, just seems to be a lot of bullshit... and rules that people made up for other people.
i was talking to my friend, Rich, about this *who is catholic* and i told him that i have this image in my head...
a bunch of old men sitting around a fire, snickering, writing down rules for catholicism... To which we decided to write a scene. :)
"...oh! and... *snicker, snicker* let's say that.... the priest can't ever have sex!"
"ooo! good one!"
"and that means regular sex!"
"but not sex with little boys who are our altar boys... that part's okay !" .
"and the more boys you get, we'll keep moving you around the country... so you can sample boys from all parts of the country"
"Right! 10 points per each boy!"
"And if someone gets caught, we'll put them somewhere outside of the country...so they can try their hand there."
"yes that's good... write that down!.."
Yeah, the catholics suck the fun out of life. And the joy out of sex. There is such a huge debate now about celibate priests.
On "Fresh Air" about a month ago Terri Gross interviewed a former priest who had fallen in love with and married a nun. He said it was hard to minister to people because he didn't have that reference. And he still felt he is called to minster and still does. Good interview and undoubtedly a good book. That's the problem I have. How can I tell you my problems when you don't have any idea what I've gone through.
I love former gangbangers, addicts, and other people that have had hard lives, finding God and knowing they have to spread the love, the word. That I can relate to, I can feel that they've been touched that they know grace. I have a hard time with the sincerity of someone who pledged their lives to God at like 16. What do you know at 16? I'm not discounting it, it just may lack sincerity sometimes.
Hm. I vaguely remember those "debates," now that you mention them (I probably repressed the memories because you made me so mad! ha!)
I think my opinion has always boiled down to: honestly, why would anyone choose such a hard road? Being het really is the easiest "choice," if you really think it's about choice.
Oh yeah, and I think I'm going to change the link colors, because it just now dawned on me that Jen put a link to the story in her original post. Black, purple, they look the same!
But anyway, I watched the video, and it made me extremely sad. If the accuser is telling the truth, what a distance to fall (I always liked Nick and admired him following his calling); if she's lying, well, his career is still fucked, and I can't believe he'll really work again anywhere.
i'm so happy for your friend, doug, gretchen... i can't fathom the pain and suffering he must've felt. He deserves all the happiness in the world and all the while being his own person.
oh, and treating people with shock treatment... and for their sexual orientation...
what, are we still living in the 1940's?!
i feel the same way about religious organizations. I realize that not all are the same...
some churches, though... to say "God loves all of his children" and for those same people to try to change others so that they will fit into their belief system... it's repulsive to me.
It's just false advertisement.
While I'm not Catholic, I have actually gained much knowledge about the religion itself, mainly from a historical and cultural context. As a medievalist, I've taken a lot of classes in which I've studied the practices, rituals, and beliefs in Catholicism. I have to admit, although I have mucho problemos with the Catholic church politically, I also have an immense fascination for a branch of Christianity that is amazingly old and of which I am not a part. Ultimately, celibacy was designed as a way for a priest to become as close to God as possible -- stripping away (yep, you guessed it) that which makes us most human. Not all priests were celibate at one point -- I'd have to check some sources to see when celibacy was made canon law, some synod, who knows when. Saints are often beatified for their virginity *and willingness to hold onto it not matter what temptation* (oh, the tales of saints I've read) -- but, well, those are SAINTS. Very few are going to hold fast to such ideals.... and the question is, are they even ideals? (Right now, my entire dissertation deals with a particular English saint's cult and the political/royal/national ideologies surrounding it; while I have immense interest in these things, there's no way I could convert to Catholicism today.)
Ok, now I'm shutting up about my work.
I'm Christian, but I agree with much that's been said here about organized religion. Someone I met once briefly while visiting a church here told me about how hard it was for her to find a church. Eventually, she just had to tell/remind herself that everyone at any church was human -- flawed, problematic, snobby, arrogant, whatever the fault you'd still find it at a church. I don't mean to suggest that churches better be perfect or else, but I guess I've just experienced too much bad leadership in churches in particular. Plus, churches run like businesses these days -- and have you seen the McChurches that seem to spring up everywhere? They lead to committee work where people squabble, study groups where people fear to speak up, and leadership that can be good, but more and more, just as flawed as leadership in any workplace or organization. So my question has lately been, how can a Christian find community without getting roped into a church? It's like this old book my mom gave me once called "How to be a Christian without being religious." That's what I would like to be.
I should add that a friend of mine, recently divorced, actually had to STOP GOING to a church because she was treated so poorly in a time of most emotional need. And this was the church where she had been going throughout much of her married life. I just can't get past that. What happened to compassion?
And another tangent, I remember your debates, Ellie and Gretchen! Argh, it reminds me just now of hearing a sermon at home this summer that was basically a rant against gays. The sub-text (if you can even call it something that subtle) was basically that AIDS was a punishment for homosexuality. I think my palms were bleeding after the service from my nails cutting into them; I was so ashamed and mad and embarrassed to be there. My mom and I were so upset by it.
Okay, I'm done here -- sorry to go on for so long.... My question is -- and it's a biggie so watch out -- what is it that turns people off of the Christian faith itself? I mean, as much as I have current problems and sadnesses about organized religion, these issues will never change what I believe. I'm just wondering what others think.
Well, I wasn't raised in a church, so by the time we started going in high school, I just didn't have that strong foundation. I burned brightly and briefly. Summer church camp had a great deal to do with it.
Hannah and LeAnn have both been to Westminster Woods, but probably everyone else heard me talk about it. It was a magical place. A perfect, insular place to worship God in nature. I think I probably took to it so strongly because of the nature aspect.
So, to the point: after high school, I spent three summers as a camp counselor. The first year was a deep, intense, life-changing experience, but it subsequently went downhill for the next two years. The final summer was hell. My fellow counselors were assholes. ASSHOLES. (LeAnn: Eric Hunt, Aaron Judd, Allison, Kadon [not so bad, but a follower], Kadon's best friend Scott, and two girls you'd probably recognize if you saw their pictures).
The summer was miserable. The counselors were horrible, unGodly influences on the kids, and generally acted like they didn't want to be there. One night during high school week, my co-counselor slept on the porch with some of our campers, and I listened from inside thru the wee hours of the morning to him (Scott, I am sad to say, LeAnn) tell sexist and racist jokes. I think there may even have been some cruel gossiping about other campers and staff. I think my name came up. I just lay there wanting to die, thinking, "This is supposed to be God's holy place. Why is this happening?" I went to the camp director the next morning, sobbing, begging her to let me quit. She did not let me, for I was a dedicated counselor whom the kids loved, and she would have been screwed minus one female counselor.
I got through it, and then started my senior year of college, really in spiritual crisis. The camp stuff, plus feelings I had always had, played a big part in me deciding that I wanted to give up the guilt for not being a stronger Christian (it was hard to maintain that Goddy high outside of Westminster Woods, in the real world). I decided that if I at least maintained SOME SORT of spirituality in my life, then having "religion" wasn't important to me.
And as time went by, it became less important to me. I am moved by the way the wind blows through the trees, or water bubbles down a creek (water in particular has always been my . . . I don't know . . . connection point), but I don't take special time each day to connect wtih nature.
I believe in having one drink too many, one night stands, in teaching girls to love their bodies instead of being ashamed of them, in providing birth control instead of preaching abstinence, in boys kissing boys, in divorce if it needs to happen, in sleeping late on Sundays. I am not interested in being a part of any organization that disapproves of my beliefs.
The thing that Tim and I struggle with, however (him more than me), is wanting some sort of community. Not just a group of friends to hang out with, but people who lift each other up and provide a support system so everyone feels safe striving to be a better person.
Tim's beliefs can be boiled down to this: Beauty, love, and funk. He asked me once what I believed in. I guess I had never tried to define it before, and it was hard. I finally came to this: Love, hope, and charity. (I don't know if "charity" really adequately describes helping others without sounding condescending, but I just wanted one word.) I am pleased now, being able to articulate my motto, beliefs, and purpose in life.
I think it's important to really determine what you believe and the form that it takes. Even though I was raised in a church (or BECAUSE I was), I find it important to define my beliefs more carefully and precisely. That gets harder all the time.
After reading Ellie's and Jen's posts again, I was thinking that it may be even more disillusioning to encounter religion as a teenager when everyone is so immature and gossipy to start with (okay, not any of us were of course! ;) but you know what I mean). Of course, I'm sure we all know adults who could give teens a run for their money in those areas. I guess I should try to take others out of the equation when it comes to my own faith, and that's the hardest part when you desperately want community at the same time.
I was thinking more about these issues last night, and it occurred to me that what really made me frustrated about Christian groups was the misogyny, both explicit and implicit. Reading Ellie's post about teaching girls to love their bodies rather than be ashamed of them, I was reminded of when I decided that I would not be ashamed of my own body. I remember when some guy I knew in college saw a girl wearing this body suit w/jeans (remember those being hip, ladies? I wore them all the time), and he said, with disgust oozing from his voice, 'I would never let any future daughter of mine be seen like that.' I treated it lightly at first, thinking he was saying it just to tease my "feminazi" frame of mind (and I'm using that word for Garrett's amusement, btw) but what followed was his whole argument about how women should cover themselves up to save men from their own weaknesses and desires, so to speak. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. This was no light remark on his part. It's like the celibacy thing: So God gave us bodies so that we would be ashamed of them? No no no. But his claims went beyond the superficial -- it was also the whole thing about men being the leaders in a household, the promisekeeper movement, etc...... all of that rhetoric is just a way to keep women in subservient positions -- to shame them into these positions. Religion, as an organization, seems to ask that we worship mortal men. Maybe that's why I can't handle church as a structure.
So, yeah, there's my 2,000 cents. I'm going to stop ranting now. Really. Watch. :)
you know... i agree with so much of everything that's been said by everyone. And i think it all boils down to each person's history of experiences and exposure to religion and ideas of God and faith.
garrett and i went to church a lot when we were kids, too... sunday school, then church.
And i ALWAYS seemed to hate it. Took the opportunity to take whatever little "contribution" pieces of paper were in the slots on the pew in front of me, along with it's little pencil and draw, draw, draw... checking my dad's watch ever 5 minutes to make sure that time was still passing that my hour of "personal hell on earth" was almost up.
Then between the ages of 10 and 14, i really got involved in our church youth group and truly started believing in all things holy. i loved God, Jesus, church... believed with my heart in the whole sh-bang. I even went to a christian camp for a couple of summers, too... *Christian Hills... 1st summer was great because i made a lot of friends with the same interest. 2nd summer sucked because those same friends decided that i wasn't "cool" enough to be associated with them. Nice, huh. That camp was more about friendships than God, i realized later*
But as i got older, i began to recognise a LOT of the flaws in organized religion and exposed myself to it's history...
Even though it's based on love and creation, it seems that so much hate and cruelty is a subtext to all kinds of religion. And it's interesting... it's RARELY ever discussed unless something BIG happens in the media *movie, or news of a man or woman going public about getting molested by a priest when he/she was a kid*...
it's like dirty laundry or that one relative that some people don't talk about because of a "sordid" past... And understandably. Because, who would WANT to???
so, i learned about both sides of religion... and just tended to lean more towards the idea that the history of it and how it progresses so slowly from negative to positive, is just something that i don't want to base my life on.
Sometimes i go to church when i'm in marion... when i get a wild hair and my dad is serving communion at church on a particular sunday and he won't be alone...
That, and on holidays.
Basicly, i'm a "Chr-easter"
Obviously, i've boiled down to not being much of a religious person.
i have a level of belief that there's something much bigger and powerful than all of us and this world; but i don't feel the necessity to pray for forgiveness every time i do or say something that others disagree with. Or to give huge amounts of money to organizations and churches so that they can churn out stale bread and shots of grape juice for the masses that think that if they eat it, close their eyes and say a few words in their heads, that they're automatically "forgiven". And yes, i know that not ALL people go to church and think that. But to a lot of people that i've talked to about this issue, after time goes by... it gets to be more routine, rather than faith.
I don't believe that gay men and women will burn in hell simply because they love in a way that is not the norm in religious views. Or that people should feel compelled to stay in a marriage that's loveless or abusive because church says that they should "work on resolving their differences". Sometimes if it's broken, you can't ALWAYS fix it or tweek it so that it operates more efficiently.
It's really hard for me to reconsider or appreciate christianity and other religions when it's pressed on to me, or if it's used as an excuse to spread hatred and hurt others because they don't think the same way that they do *e.g., Fred Phelps taking all of his minions to protest at a gay man's funeral*. Sometimes people can take their beliefs too far, and cross the line of decency and into the category of lost morality.
But, like i've said before... i'm really happy for people that have found a religion or something to believe in... that they can talk to and put all of their faith and trust into.
To some people, like myself, we just don't need that. We need our family, friends and freedom... kindness, love and compassion between and for those that we know and don't... and just letting life be what it is.
I'm a very curious creature *i'm just that sort :)*...
What do you think of everyone's views and thought of this topic, LeAnn? I know you've mentioned that god and church are such a big part of you and your life.... How do you feel about all of this???
i just re-read my post... and wanted to add *long-winded chatterbox that i am today* ....
the last part that i wrote, asking LeAnn for her opinion... it kinda sounds like i'm suddenly pointing my finger at her and saying, "hey, churchgirl! Defend your beliefs!!!" No, no, no, no, no...
if anyone, ESPECIALLY LeAnn, felt like that, i'm so sorry... typed words don't always convey exactly what or how someone is trying to communicate, i find. I just want to clarify...
I really appreciate that she has so much faith in God and that it seems to mean so much in her life right now. I'm simply interested in her views.
So, again... sorry if people think that i've stuck my big size 10 foot into my mouth *yet again*...
and if you didn't... please kindly disregard this post...
you know what? i'm just going to shut up now...
okay, thank you and have a lovely evening. Narf.
I was talking to Katie about this, and she had an interesting point. She thinks the flaws of organized religion are a cop-out, an easy answer for people to deny being religious. That she in particular spouts off, say, political reasons if someone asks her why she doesn't go to church. There's a Presby church in the heart of Boys Town that Paula is always suggesting she go to. (Out of any church, you'd expect THAT one to be open and loving!) And yet she still doesn't go. She just doesn't feel like/need it.
And she went on to say that you can't define religion by other people's behaviors "because they aren't what you are trying to believe in, you are trying to believe in a higher power, in a God, spirit, etc."
But.
Isn't religion exactly defined as other people's beliefs and behaviors? No matter how long ago, someone had to say: "Ok, everyone who believes X, we'll start a group to believe it together." If not for that, it's all just a big mess of spirituality.
So.
Back to going to church. We went an evangelical church this summer because the congregants were nice, but I was never 100% comfortable there.* I guess I just don't want to go to church.
* (The first time we went, I had a panic attack during the contemporary soft-rock songs of praise. Seriously. Flashback to church camp, I think.)
That story about Nick makes me so sad. I´ve been thinking about him lately, I think because of getting back in touch with my past here, and then, also, it´s just so damn catholic in these parts. But I remember Nick being very much into girls, and thinking that it might be hard for him to give that up.
Catholocism. I don´t know. Mom grew up in a very catholic family, but I never really knew that much about it. Then, about a year ago, I started dating a catholic guy. And it was mostly kind of awful, because his religion and my point of view clashed so completely. And he wouldn´t explain anything about it, and so I would bump into his beliefs at the worst moments. Sometimes I felt like he was just used to following the catholic path, and didn´t really believe in some of it...but he used to say that it wasn´t a smorgasbord, it was all or nothing. Which I have to admire, I guess...a lot of discipline to muster. But it didn´t work, I like the things that are thought of as sin too much...But then, I don´t think of sex as a sin. Actually, that was really wierd. I felt like a slut when I was around him, something I´ve never felt like with anyone I was dating before. I told him that, and I think he agreed with me...it was as though possessing a few tempting curves made me dangerous and dirty. Yuck. I´m glad that´s over.
And here´s another thing that bothers me, at least down here. It is very very catholic, peoples´lives revolve around working in the fields, going to church and fiestas. I´m not saying a devout life is bad, it´s actually quite good, but here a lot of it is done by rote. Actually, the thing that bothers me the most is that anything the priest says to do, everyone does, no questions asked. When he says, give money to do this or that, people do it. Fortunately, the priest of my parish is pretty nice(although very flirtatious), and i do think most of what he does is in the best interest of the community. Still. It´s a lot of power.
Have you all seen the movie, The Magdalene Sisters? It's very interesting and sad, but excellent and based on true events...
http://imdb.com/title/tt0318411/
My mom was a victim of the nuns all the way through high school. My dad, too. They didn't tell about anything worse than a whole hell of a lot of rulers to knuckles, but with my mom in particular, I know she's particularly susceptible to the famed Catholic Guilt.
I don't think guilt is a great, pure-spirited motivator, but that really goes without saying, huh?
Wow, this is a really long post. I see that my name is in it a couple times but I don't have time to read the whole thing right this very second. This topic is SO interesting to me though so I will check back in when I have a bit of time...
While I am here, though, let me just say that my in-laws are Catholic and they believe that the church should make it so that priests are allowed to marry. I think that is a good idea as well, and if you study a bit of biblical history you find out that the person Catholics uphold as the first "pope", whether or not he was, actually was married himself.
My father-in-law says that he thinks the church actually WILL change this in the future, as there is such a shortage of priests these days in America.
Like I said...I want to wax eloquent about this post but I have to read all of your fabulous comments first.
Hannah, your details about Catholicism in Ecuador remind me very much of the short fiction I've read by Gabriel Garcia Marquez. "The Very Old Man with Enormous Wings" creates an interesting satirical edge about Catholicism as a kind of ruling institution -- much like a bureaucratic business handing down memos to believers as to how they should act, etc. Interesting.
The catholic church just made a formal rule that practicing gay men can´t be priests...I heard it on the bbc. I had to laugh though...if marriage, and sex is outlawed by a generally homophobic church, you´d think that it would go without saying that practicing gay men couldn´t be ordained.
My neighbors here were telling me about how there is a possibility that priests could marry...it was on the news. They always know the current world news, they listen to it like it´s the latest telenovela. But át the same time, they don´t know what the names of the surrounding provinces are. What a whacked country.
Wow, that was a sidetrack...
Ás far as this thing about nick goes, though, I can´t really see him attacking someone. I don´t really believe it. I mean, I guess I´d believe that he might have gotten romantically involved with someone, but assaulted? I just don´t believe it.
Yeah, I completely agree. I can't see an attack occurring. It sounds like it was a consensual affair, and she got freaked out or who knows what and thought she could gain from exposing him. I hate the fact that his name was released on the news like that.
yeah, the BTK killer was a pretty nice guy, too... until you got to know him.
*just playing y'all. :)*
This is such an interesting thread to me. It seems we all have so many questions about spirituality and the world, and just life in general. Religion is such a crazy topic because it encompasses all of the rest of life and because people always have so much of themselves invested in it...or they don't, and they claim a religion anyway, and give everyone else the wrong idea. Catholocism I think particularly lends itself to this, just because of the nature of their church services and practices. This is unfortunate to me...I dislike empty practice and the message it sends to people who are actually searching for a meaningful experience with God.
Catie, you asked me earlier what I thought about all this, and by the way I take no offense to that. Even if you HAD called me churchy girl I wouldn't mind. I know your intentions toward me are friendly, so no fear. :) I did some thinking, and there were so many topics that had been brought up in the thread by this point that it was hard to know where to start. I looked at all of them and finally realized that all of these questions, problems, irritations, whatever you want to call them...they all boil down to one thing. They can all be answered, not in a religion, but in a man, the man called Jesus. He is simply different from any other person who ever lived. He is one of a few before or since who claimed to be God, and the only one of those who has ever actually backed up His claim with evidence. Some have claimed to be God's prophets, rightfully or otherwise, but of the few who have claimed to actually be God, most have ended up going the way of Jim Jones or David Koresh.
Now, of course most people are skeptical when they hear things like this, because I come from the viewpoint that the Bible is God's word written to us, not just a bunch of stuff that came out of people's heads and got written on paper. That is not an argument that I've had to have with myself but I am currently starting to research it a bit because I want to know more about why it is that I believe the Bible is God's word...because I do, without question.
So we all have these issues with religion, political stuff that gets dragged in, jerky people who misrepresent God, and above all (at least this is a big part of it for some) resentment that someone else has the right to suggest that we need to conform to their way of thinking. And it's all been rolling around in my head since yesterday now and it still ends up boiling down to one thing. Jesus can answer all of those questions if you will take the time to ask Him. Take the time to learn to know ABOUT Him, and then to learn to actually know Him, and this sounds crazy but it's true...He will not fail to answer every single one of those questions for you. As long as you go in with no other motive than to know the truth, you won't be let down. If you go in looking for reasons to prove it wrong, I can't say one way or the other what will come of it...maybe you'll convince yourself of that or maybe you'll still see Him for who He is. But I do know this...Jesus has nothing to do with empty religion or deception or hatred, and whoever goes to Him to learn the truth will learn it. At the risk of causing some severe eye-rolling among the skeptical, I am thinking of a scripture that talks about this, and it's Jeremiah 29:13...And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.
Maybe no one wanted to hear this...but Catie...you asked, so there ya go. That's what I think about "all this"!
Thanks, LeAnn, I really enjoyed that last post.
I don´t know if I´d call myself a Christian...but I have always thought that Jesus was a cool guy. And even though I´ve never gone to church regularly, He´s important to me. I just can´t express it any better than that.
I think that for me, He´s the embodiment (but not the only one) of all that is good and pure, and it bothers me when mean or selfish things are done in the name of Jesus(or Buddha, or God, or Mary, or Allah, or whathaveyou.).
Priest won't be charged, says district attorneySedgwick County District Attorney Nola Foulston said Friday that a Catholic priest did not break the law in his relationship with a former parishioner.
Foulston said she had no evidence to pursue charges, based on an investigation into a complaint to police by the Wichita woman.
Foulston's announcement came three weeks after Peggy Warren publicly accused the priest of sexually assaulting her.
At that time, Bishop Michael Jackels of the Wichita Diocese acknowledged there wasan "inappropriate relationship" between the two.
Foulston said the investigation found nothing more than a couple of instances of consensual kissing, holding hands and hugging in April 2004.
After two incidents, Foulston said, the priest called off the relationship. Warren then sent him two lengthy letters, to which he didn't respond.
In August 2004, court records show, Warren began pursuing civil legal actions. The Catholic Church paid a settlement for counseling expenses. In April, she contacted police.
The Eagle is not identifying the priest or his parish because he is not charged with a crime.
See, you just never know what assault really is. And I'm extremely happy that nothing else will happen.
I'm Buddhist, but I think everyone will agree with me when I say:
Thank God!
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